1B$ net loss on 11.2B$ revenue in 2018. Revenue up 42% YoY. Operations loss was 3.03B$ in 2018.
Interestingly, in their S-1, they explicitly state “We expect our operating expenses to increase significantly in the foreseeable future, and we may not achieve profitability.”
1B$ net loss on 11.2B$ revenue in 2018. Revenue up 42% YoY. Operations loss was 3.03B$ in 2018.
- Apple fruitco334Lol and dummies here want to say Uber is “Tier 1” - tier one companies make money, not somehow contrive a 100bn valuation while losing almost 2 bil a year...Christ.
- As a software engineer i never applied to Apple and will never do so in future. My gut feeling is this apple person got rejected by Uber as 100s of apple employees get rejected. Apple as a business may be is great but apple on resume is awful on other hand uber’s business may not be great but uber on my resume is fantastic for my career. Guess what i care abt later.
- Facebook B13captainmoreI don’t think uber has earned the “hurr durr ur just jealous” badge yet. Most people at Uber aren’t going to earn Fuck You money, and they are still a ways from proving long term viability. On top of all that, a lot of growing up to do as a company, hot off of the past... 10 years? A few years ago you saw people scrambling over from FANG, but that was when the upside was much bigger, but nowadays it does feel like a smaller pond and lower reward over risk than the bigger players.
- Bloomberg / EngFork()more@SAP can confirm. All of them were cash flow negative years in the first few years (as expected) but they were all well into cash flow positive territory long before an IPO. Amazon would have bee sooner had it not been sideswiped by the dotcom bubble. Maybe Jeff has a point about free cash flow.
Point being, they did not sustain long term losses on their core business. Their growth initiatives ate whatever margin they had, which is a good thing.
Borrowing from Letter to pay Paul is not a good long term business strategy. I can get a business with 4 digits growth if I give away a dollar every 50 cents you give me.
- Exactly. It’s all like a Ponzi scheme. Keep selling $1 for $.80 as long someone funds it. The moment money stops it all ends. VCs now dumping on retail to make billions. Retail to be the bag holder. Btw look at Operating Cash Flow instead of Free Cash Flow. That is more imp and Amazon and Google all had that before IPO. Tesla, Uber , Lyft doesn’t.
- Google u will learn. Free cash flow takes into account CapEx and other depreciation etc. CapEx is how much money u r investing in growing ur business. That is company subjective. So that’s why I took out of that and just look at operating cash flow. And as I predicted Uber just now like Lyft said they may never make profit. But they are still going for $100B
- Uber rolexFAANG people who build a button with 20 engineers cannot comprehend how uber Uber is. Who uses Facebook anymore? Who’s excited about the new iPhone whatever? The king of the startups is coming to the market. The stock will go 2x the first day. You should short your retirement home stocks.
- Substantially better financials than Lyft! Lyft managed to lose 90% as much money with less than 1/6 of market share. Lyft is the yahoo of rideshare.
- Amazon qGts51Can someone ELI5 why uber is making a loss when it seems like uber continues to make so many sales?
- There's a stark difference between
- selling 1 dollar bills for 90 cents
- selling 1 dollar bills for $1.20 and spending 3 billion to tell more people about the deal and 1.5 billion more to figure out how to sell 1 dollar bills for $2.
Those that don't understand the difference are welcome to short.
- Amazon hasn't achieved "profitability" either. Self driving cars are coming and when that happens they'll be able to cut their biggest cost. They'll be fine.
- @amazon stock based compensation is useful to keep cash flow same, which is good for company, and increase outstanding shares , which is bad for investors . Tax wise there is no difference in paying cash versus paying stocks to employees, as corporates record it as business expense .
- Uber is an inherently flawed, unscalable business. Unless it is capable to put driverless cars on the street soon, it will collapse.
- Holy shit this the funniest, most misleading graphic ever. Colors in entire countries if uber “operates” there, never mind the market share there. Leaves a tiny dot for every other company. By the same logic that uber is shaded in, the entire U.S. should be pink also since lyft is all over the U.S. or are you telling me lyft only operates in New York? Jesus what a false spread of information.Apr 1123
- I’m laughing thinking about your face when you find out you can’t sell your stock right away and watch its value melt away as the company tanks...
- Doesn’t matter even if the stock does tank in the short term. What matters is long-term. We have strong signals for growth and are making investments in the right areas.
Apple for a period was investing in the wrong places and was days away from Bankruptcy (has to be bailed out by Microsoft!), but later invested in the right areas which ultimately lead to a trillion dollar market cap. Gotta think long.
- The way I explain it to people outside of Uber is that it’s like a hotel chain. Imagine that company builds a hotel one year for $100m but has 0 customers in the year of construction. That company effectively “loses” 100m that year, but in the years following its construction costs are far lower and it’s able to turn a profit. Uber is effectively “building lots of hotels” right now by starting new businesses and entering new cities.
- Uber has employees working in over 600 locations worldwide. Lots of boots on the ground to work with local regulators, city planning and driver on boarding. It’s not just an app being delivered from SF. Ridesharing requires significant local Ops to get the engine running. The global employee expansion plans for this year are massive.
- Uber is the bed and breakfast of hotels. Home owners who can’t afford their mortgages rent out a room and make people feel welcome. Meanwhile, the hotel empires (auto companies) are creating technologies that allow their hotels to be minimally staffed by humans and advertise their own hotel services with their century old brand names.
- Lyft uHdD40Sure looks like some Apple employees in here got rejected from their onsites at Uber. wew lad the butthurt is off the charts.
- Lyft is a much better short candidate. They have no hope of ever becoming profitable. This is how you can look at Uber’s 1+ billion loss. Uber spends over half billion on advertising and more than that on self-driving. It can easily become profitable if it wants to (but it definitely shouldn’t anytime soon). It’s insane to short Uber while there is Lyft.
- Check your number. Uber’s loss is close to $2b. Refer to EBITDA loss, if you understand a business at all.
Self-driving tech should cost both these companies a lot to invest over coming years. Until then they can’t be huge profitable. Profitability is not a binary 0 or 1; it’s a real/floating-point number.
- And I was wrong. You can’t sell naked calls or puts as those would still be options during the option moratorium. You can however sell contracts above or below strike, but you’re going to need a market maker for that and market investors don’t have access to those, only institutional investors.
- I will tell you because I joined Uber four years ago. 30k was a fair offer for senior, with 50k being high end (1%) and a lot of seniors bullied down to SWE 2 ~15-20k RSU offers.
The last wealth generation for Uber happened when they rocketed from $4bn to $40bn. So, 2013 joiners are rich, maaaaybe very early 2014. After that, they’re backfilling the valuation.
- A lot of great things lose money. I think Uber genuinely made transportation easier.
- EBITDA loss is what one should one read.. it’s $1.9B.. for a meager $11.3B business.. Meh
1.5b rides generate $11.3b only = $7.5 / ride ~ cost of 2 espresso.
- I’ve no hate to Uber or to any country. We talk here about valuation, and to prove that it must show growth in highest rev zone.
I worked at Facebook earlier; and it’s not their growth in SE-Asia that investors valued much, but concern on growth saturation in North America & Europe. I still remember last year on July 25 FB lost 20%; IIRC highest valuation loss for any company ever. FB has monopoly power, so just making more Ad impression it can still grow handsomely short term. Not same for Uber.
Same is for Amazon. They conquered US retail already and Bezos showed his competency investing in Cloud starting back in 20004, led by some ex-Academics now known as Vogel. Even smart folks at Google didn’t conceive it back then, and Microsoft just followed the path. Such innovation, like Cloud, is beyond Uber’s business scope: ride, delivery, freight- everything existed before. So it won’t be a winner get all business ever!
- Fundamentals of valuation are out of the window for quite a while now. Hate the comparison as it’s not quite apples to apples but lots of value investors were trashing Amazon for years on years with similar reasoning and saying it has no competitive advantage, burns cash and no barriers of entry. Time has shown there is some value to customer stickiness, volume growth and pivoting into other spaces. Uber is clearly doing some of that with Uber eats and other business bets. Clearly lots of investment is heading to Uber, so at least some folks are putting money where their mouth is. Time will tell if the bets pay off. Lots of folks would rather work on risky bets as well and it seems like a good company overall.
- ^ check the fact:
- customer service: non-existent vs best in class. I use Uber/lyft 4-5 times a week, and lyft almost always cheaper. So it gets my $. Loyalty doesn’t exist on ride sharing platform. As simple as it is.
- valuation at IPO: 0.4 (1997) vs 100 billion (2019). Go back and check the inflation and compare at today’s value. And, remember 1997 was 3 years ahead of dot.com.
- Amazon third-party sellers don’t live on ride/delivery tips like ripped-off drivers or delivery folks. Charge more to customers, then owning car would be optimal in developed countries (in Asian countries car ownership costs much more). Charge less; drivers will earn peanuts and will look for alternative earning.
- Retail won’t save Amazon anyway; Cloud will. Uber has no scope of such business except self-driving. But even Waymo has no guts although they started back in 2009. Simple math says even 1 million L5 autonomous car will cost 40+ billions. Come back when a low-margin ride sharing business make aggregated mid-11 figure sums.
- Stay comfortable on that high horse. Clearly Google never runs money-losing product bets and only works on sure thing right. Only difference is Google has the luxury of burning own cash due to crazy margins on the ads business. Would have been more rational by your logic to return it all to investors and not spend on Waymo and tons of other products Google built and killed over the years.
It’s fine to have skepticism, you are entitled to your opinion, but you may want to be more considerate that others are less risk averse and like moonshot ideas and getting their skin in the game. Some by building them, some by investing in them.
Keep spitting on their dreams, it won’t make much difference, but at least stay more civil unlike your in earlier comments.
- You can’t argue based on facts and rationales to carry a meaningful discussion rather your points are based on convoluted hypothesis. Like if Amazon, if Google , if Facebook; then why not Uber.. etc. etc.
Resigning this thread, and blocking you so never have to see your irrational hypothesis in any posts in future.
- “We may not achieve profitability”. Where have we read this in the recent past ? Yes. SNAP and then LYFT and next is UBER. This market is nuts :)
- Lol an online taxi company built on pure criminality, unethical behavior, and fraud. I hope the execs are indicted under the RICO act and spend decades in jail!
- Dropbox puts&callsI've never witnessed so much jealousy in one place. Best of luck, Uberoos! This is good for everyone in tech.
- VMware / OtherKhGTvf“We may not achieve profitability” - that’s just a cop out so people can’t sue them for running negative $s all day. With all that said this is a far better standing than Lyft
- I wonder who is going to fill up the tank when a driverless cars runs out of gas 🤔
- I’m not sure if I see it wrong but Uber’s s-1 shows a positive net income but an ebidta loss for 2018. Can anyone else confirm what’s the case with this?
- When amazon went public, Bezos faced the same question re: profitability. His answer was something like: “Amazon isn’t profitable now, and I don’t see a time when it will be profitable in the near future.” It went public in 1997 at $18 a share. I looked at it that day and had $5000 to invest at $17.83 a share. I thought about that quote and invested in Timberland boots instead. I doubled my money in 3 years. That $5000 invested in Amazon would be $5 million today.
- Am I doing the math wrong? I see split adjusted IPO closing price of 1.47. With $5000 I could have bought 3400 shares. I assume I would have sold some to take some appreciation, and therefore $5 mil but if I kept all those shares I calculate today it would be a bit more than $6.1 mil.
- ^ that was because their revenue was only 15 million and they were, as per their s-1, targeting online book sales. Book market was around 30 billion at that time and Amazon’s moonshot project was digital book industry. Read Amazon’s s-1. I’m not saying Uber will be another Amazon but even Okta is losing 25% of it’s revenue.
- Lyft is just a copy cat of Uber. Uber dominates the ride-share market. They are also diversifying in to several areas.
Their biggest risks are 1) continued lobbying & regulation brought on by bigger companies.
2) Continuing to neuter themselves; they used to be bold & do amazing things, thumbing their nose at entrenched powers. Here’s hoping the Tiger is still there & they haven’t lost their edge.
- I think they can still be aggressive in the industry without being aggressive in the office. For me Facebook has that DNA. Those stories about “dealing” with Vine and other competitors never translated into rampant workplace issues.
You don’t have to be a bro to dominate the market. Might be correlated but not causal I’m certain.
- The Big Short! As if BMW or Benz etc when they have self driving cars they can't do this silly app, request your ride! UBER is a dump and will be a history. no harm to buy early and put stop-limit order on this stock. They are on IPO only because investors need the money.
- numbers look better than expected tbh
contribution margin is good and so is narrowing losses plus growth in eats and freight
- Don't people in these pre-IPO have a no sale clause once IPO? Like a 6month lock down when they cannot sell?