What do Chinese people in US think of Tiananmen square massacre or democracy in general?

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MkRt6y

Google Eng

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MkRt6ymore
Jun 5 47 Comments

a) Did u know about this before u moved to US?
b) Do most of your family members back home know about this?
c) Do you or Chinese people you know of actually care about that or democracy in general?

Motivation : Just curious to know the Chinese perspective. I know that China is economically very advanced, and I totally respect both the western media perspective as well as the alternative perspective that economy matters more than democracy.

P.S: I am an Indian.
TC : 305k, just coz its blind.

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TOP 47 Comments
  • Twitch / Data select *
    1. Nobody gives a shit about an incident that happened 3 decades ago. It's not relevant to anyone nowadays. People are aware, but are too busy to give a shit.

    2. Democracy is a sham. A shitty leadership voted in by democracy isn't any better imo than a good leadership that wasn't voted in. People only care about growth and quality of life. If we live in an authoritarian dictatorship, but the dictatorship improves my wellbeing everyday, I'm cool with it.

    3.This whole thing about freedom being limited in China is mostly edge cases, ie if you're into academia and are super into writing things that may potentially cause dissonance. For most people living day to day lives, nobody gives a shit.

    Dude. Just go take a vacation and go to China. See how fast paced things are. See how it's now a cashless society and you use your phone to pay for everything and how convinient that is. See how you can take a high speed rail and go from Beijing to Shanghai in a few hours. See the abundance of food and shopping and the Convinience of having stuff delivered to you on the go.

    For most people, thats enough. There's no reason to challenge govt.

    It's a different story if you're in rural areas, particularly in geopolitically sensitive areas like western China. But that means that people there are poor and thus are neglected. That happens everywhere. You have a voice if you have money. If you're poor, you'll be oppressed anywhere you go in the world, and no amount of democracy will help you.
    Jun 5 8
    • Twitch / Data select *
      You make it seem like people are retar*ed in China. There seems to be this belief that there's this almighty firewall in China that keeps people in the ignorant shadows, but in reality, just about anyone can VPN out and read Wikipedia if they want, although most people don't care and can't be bothered. "Lots of people don't know what happened that day" ? Maybe if you're a poor af farmer in rural China that has never had access to the internet. People may not talk openly about it, but that doesn't mean people don't know. It's just not that important or relevant to modern day people.

      Democracy is a great concept that works well on paper, but relies on a lot of critical assumptions that don't happen in real life. Democracy assumes a voting population that is intelligent and is able to properly reason. This just never happens. This is why you have a huge divide in America today where half the country believes Trump to be their Godsent savior, and the other half of the country despises him. Democracy fails when people are unable to make informed well educated decisions with the same level of knowledge. Put another way, I don't want my fate to be decided by uneducated farmers in the Midwest who genuinely believe angels are real, that foreigners are terrorists, that Mexicans are rapists, and that Trump is the living personification of Jesus.

      As for state run enterprises, thats no different than any other country in the apac region. Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, all these countries are run by behomoth conglomerates that either once had ties, or still currently maintain ties to the government.

      On freedom of expression, as an average Joe living a middle class life in China, it really doesn't matter what I say. I can bit*h about life and I can talk shit about the government and it's fine. That's because I'm a nobody and no one cares about what I have to say. It only becomes problematic if I get the attention of the masses, but that's no different anywhere else in the world. Snowden tried to do the whole free speech thing in America, he still has an international arrest warrant on his back. Freedom is an illusion until you piss off people more powerful than you and its then taken away from you.

      Also, why is bit*h and retar*ed censored on Blind but fuck is not?
      Jun 5
    • Amazon emon
      You are regurgitating CCP bullshit about democracy yet it doesn't match reality. Democracy here and everywhere has consistently selected effective leaders and when we had a bad one we limit their power and kick them out. The American people have made surprisingly good choices.

      While you may look down on the Midwest the reality is they WERE being left out of the globalization project and their vote dealt them back in. Whatever you think of Trump I guarantee to that PA, MI, OH, WI, etc, won't be ignored by any candidate in 2020. They made themselves heard, and that's awesome. Whether you agree with Trump or not (I don't) it's an incredible example of the power the American people really do have over their government and it totally destroys your bullshit about it being a sham: regular people really did flip over the apple cart because no one listened, and now everyone is listening. The elites didn't want Trump to win, the big money wasn't on his side, yet he won because people were fed up. That's awesome.

      Right now China has a horribly incompetent leader who has nevertheless established an iron grip on power so you can't get him out. Doesn't matter if you are fed up with the problems he has caused, he doesn't need to care what you or any Chinese thinks, he owns you and you are his property to do with what he wants.

      Good luck with that. I'm a Democrat but I'd take Trump over Xi any day, and in particular I'll take Trump as limited by the Senate and House any day over being a slave to a nasty dictator.
      Jun 6
    • Twitch / Data select *
      The US has never once impeached a president. While it looks good on paper, it has never been done in practice. The reality is, most presidents serve for 2 full terms and for 8 years, whether they were competent or not. As will Trump

      The latest choice of voting in Trump appears to be a total disaster. The American people in the past decade have not made great choices (although great is subjective so I don't know what metrics you are evaluating this on). But based on the continued ballooning of national debt, going mostly into the pockets of the rich that barely ever benefits the average working class, the fact that US public education is one of worst amongst developed countries, that us healthcare is a total mess, I challenge your belief that the people in the past have made good choices. Most people here are like sheep, they vote not by facts, but by how charismatic the next politician is when he says "I will fight for you!" they selfishly do things that benefit themselves, and when shit hits the fan like in 2008, they then throw the blame onto anything but themselves.

      You mentioned that the uneducated voting is a good thing but I don't want power to go to people who don't have the full picture when they are voting. I don't want a small group of people voting to bring back coal as the primary energy source because it conviniently benefits their small electoral college area. Neither do I want people in Alabama to vote to ban abortion because it conviently goes along with their belief in angels. The average is most often incompetent, why would I want an incompetent average to decide on the future of my country?

      Companies are run by competent ceos that are elected by competent and well educated shareholders who have a basic understanding of how business works. You don't have random strangers on the side of the road run vote on what a given company should do next. But when it comes to national strategies, we allow everyone to decide on the outcome. That really doesn't make sense to me, especially as the votes tend to skew towards the poorer and the more uneducated groups of people, and also tend to skew towards older people who are not working and thus have the time to go vote. Their votes don't represent my best interests. I would much rather entrust decisions to a central entity that takes advice from the smartest and brightest people to grow the collective future, than take advice from the collective average who in the past decade, ballooned the national debt to outrageous levels and then dumped the problem to my generation.

      I'm not sure why you think the Chinese administration is incompetent. They sure seem a lot more competent than the trump administration. 3 decades ago, China was a third world country that nobody took seriously. Visit today, it makes North American cities look like left behind boonietowns. The US on the other hand was the crown jewel of the world decades ago but is increasingly losing its global influence.

      The concept that the Chinese government doesn't care about the people is simply false. They take extreme care in solving people's problems. This is because China has a population of 1.4 billion people and is mostly concentrated in high density cities; any potential instability there with their population density concentrated in a small area is disastrous.
      Jun 6
    • Amazon emon
      I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about kicking them out via an election. Your are stuck with Xi, we are not stuck with Trump. The people get to decide whether they still want him next year.

      Lots of presidents have lost after a single term it's not uncommon at all.

      You keep denigrating politicians which is cheap. The reality is that American leaders along with those of other democracies have on the whole been very effective. They have a much better long term track record than Chinese leaders by a LONG shot.

      Regardless of what you think of Jiang or Hu or Deng, who were ok leaders, your country has still not recovered from the disasters of the culture revolution and the great leap. Literally you lost whole generations and your economy was set back many decades. You have only now achieved what you should have been by the 1960s.

      The problem with dictatorships is that every now and then THAT happens, and it does so much damage it sets you back DECADES. As for Xi I listed in detail his failings.

      Trump is limited by Congress, and he's not really all that bad. I don't agree with his immigration policies at all but he's been effective in pursuing the agenda he was elected to follow and his election blows away your sheep comment: he was NOT the establishment choice. Big business, the Washington elite and the media all really did back Clinton--but actual Americans in those farm states you look down on were fed up and voted to upset the apple cart.

      And you know what? Now this election Democrats and Republicans are falling over each other to reach those people and solve their problem. They had been ignored yet they dealt THEMSELVES back into the conversation. That is AWESOME. I expect in 2020 they will have several solutions to choose from instead of Trump: they literally changed the conversation just by voting.

      I have lived in China so don't patronize me. The growth is ALL due to the private sector, particularly in the Eastern provinces, and really has nothing to do with the incompetent boobs in Beijing. All they ever did was finally get out of the way after thoroughly fucking the country for decades. After several pro market people like Jiang you now have Xi who is reverting back to the failed centrally planned, state run model, and it's resulted in much lowered growth. He's a fuck up.
      Jun 6
    • Amgen / Finance
      Mrmephisto

      Amgen Finance

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      Mrmephistomore
      That’s true and honestly I didn’t realize the extent to which Xi has changed things...I was living there when Hu was president and (Tiannamen aside) Deng Xiaoping is the true savior of China. Sad to hear Winnie the Pooh is regressing things so much. It’s hard to get a good read from my In-Laws since they lived through Mao and to them it’s still a way better situation so why rock the boat?
      Jun 6
  • Pure Storage / Eng IEEEFellow
    Yes all Chinese know Tiananmen event and don't care much about democracy. They've seen so many bad example of so called democratic countries: India, Taiwan etc. Eventually China will find its own way and get most of the countries on board.
    Jun 6 12
    • Pure Storage / Eng China5G
      You should be aware that when war happens, your GDP per capital = rich logic is bullcrap. GDP talks.
      Jul 2
    • Pure Storage / Eng China5G
      I am very sad that many Taiwanese like you are still living in a dream that. This is a clear proof that the democracy system is a failure un Taiwan -- people are limitted to know what is happening outside the ghost island. You guys learned nothing from the U.S.
      Jul 2
    • ANSYS lmopqrstui
      In case of war Taiwan will be fully supported by the USA and other countries,no worries about that. The average life for Taiwanese is much better than Chinese, better quality of life and less pollution. No wonder your CCP propaganda is falling badly. Taiwan will fight China till his death.
      Jul 2
    • Pure Storage / Eng China5G
      LOL, keep dreaming
      Jul 2
    • ANSYS lmopqrstui
      Keep believing in the CCP propaganda and your fake leader Xi.
      Jul 2
  • Microsoft widienw
    They don’t think about it. It’s not public knowledge. Talking about it publicly will get you arrested.
    Jun 5 11
    • Twitch / Data select *
      I'm a sjw, what else did you expect? I type shit on anonymous forums about subject matters I know nothing about but pretend I'm an expert in
      Jun 6
    • Microsoft widienw
      Same, minus sjw part
      Jun 7
    • Twitch / Data select *
      That makes no sense. If you're typing shit on anonymous forums about subject matters you know nothing about, you're one of us. Stop betraying your own kind. What shamefulness, dishonoring your own family.
      Jun 7
    • Microsoft widienw
      I try but just can’t help myself
      Jun 7
    • Twitch / Data select *
      Please go commit honorable sudoku puzzles
      Jun 7
  • Riverbed Technology gitlab
    a) yes. Come on, you can always use VPN
    b) yes.
    c) Before I took college in the US, I thought democracy is the ideal model for a society. With the years I was in college and now working, I put a question mark on that now. Many premises need to be there for democracy to work well, and 2 of the most important ones I can think of is a) the voters need to be well-educated and well-informed b) every voter must vote. These 2 are not easy to achieve, even for a much better educated society than China like US. Besides that, the fact that China is a country with 1.x billion population makes the cost of practicing democracy impractical.

    Americans needs to understand that democracy is still an experiment and it's not superior. China's approach is not superior either. But the bottom line is whatever approach the country is taking, it must WORKS, even under the complex contexts of that country.

    And folks, check out China yourself and see what I am talking about. Otherwise, stay ignorant about China and get hyped with the outdated stereotypes still popping out from the Western media.
    Jun 6 1
    • Microsoft cheinebs
      China model has not proven to make the country at the level of success Western Europe and American had. Its GDP per capita is barely 10k while US is close to 50k.

      South Korea and Taiwan had similar government until 1980s which was good enough to boost the economy up to certain level. Once basic needs are fulfilled, people start demanding more such as freedom and fairness. What you see in China is not everything and I know well how good Korean dictators were at hiding their crimes. Those are not discovered until the freedom is given to all.

      This type of model could last for another ten years but it won’t make China be on the same level as other developed countries. Democracy has proven to make many countries prosperous with freedom and living without fear. Communism has not.

      Russia basically fed all the Eastern Europe but couldn’t last. We all know what happened later. Even the same Germany had drastically different economy between east and west. It is worse for Korea. Taiwan had been prosperous since many years ago while China has not reached at the level. Admittedly, the size of China is different but it is better to give freedom before its effect on humanity becomes stronger.

      Even if you are Chinese, it is hard to see the actual lives of ordinary people because you are more likely a lucky few from wealth family. Those people tend to live in bubble and think the lives around them are good representation. The average is much worse than you think in general and there are good portion of people who were sacrificed in the process which will be tragic stories. That has not happened to your family as middle or upper middle class.

      Democracy takes care of many people at disadvantage. If your child has intellectual disability or is on a wheelchair, where would you want to raise him or her?
      Jun 10
  • Microsoft devotedchm
    It is mostly used as an example these days to show how uninformed foreigners are when they talk about Chinese politics and China. When a Chinese person ‘argues’ with you on this matter, he is not arguing with you, he is teaching you. Not saying that you are wrong, you are just so unqualified to talk about it, so people have to give you a lecture on basics first. Just imagine you try to discuss basketball with someone, they begin with “you know, basketball players usually have hands and legs”.

    Did you know Modi is accused for racial hate crime and massive killing before leaving India? If you did, it only means you were educated, and Chinese are in general better educated than Indians.
    Jun 5 0
  • Snapchat gqkO66
    Not Chinese here, but democracy and China doesn’t really mix.
    Read any bit of Chinese history and you’ll realize that
    1. Beijing’s political control is tenuous at best, a popular vote can lead to a. democracy, b. unintended geopolitical situations like the kingdom of Sichuan, or even c. A millenarianist insurrection like the Falongong taking over Shanghai
    2. peaceful political dissent in public in China is a foreign concept
    3. The Chinese and foreign things needs 1000+ years to mix
    4. The probability of a civil war with a nine figure death toll is way too high for comfort.
    The Chinese shouldn’t try a transition to democracy, it’s too risky.
    Jun 6 4
    • Microsoft devotedchm
      It can mix as long as we can print money and collect IP licensing fees to trade goods, services and resources without putting any effort in it. Do you know how many Ancient Greeks can vote? Less than 10%. The rest were women, children and slaves. Do you know how many people are enjoying (functioning) western democracy in this world? Also less than 10%. Others are free to vote for whatever they believe they are entitled for, they just don’t get it. As a result, their democracy looks very different from American democracy, which in many Americans’ eyes only means they are culturally, if not racially inferior to practice democracy.
      Jun 6
    • Pure Storage / Eng IEEEFellow
      Well said. Let me tell you what American really want...they don't really care about how much democracy Chinese people can enjoy, all they want is get down CCP and make Chine incompetent forever. Look at Saudi Arabia, they have event less democracy but American don't give a shit.
      Jun 6
    • Microsoft devotedchm
      One example is that you want cheap garbage disposal but don’t want pollution. The solution is to ship garbage to China. Then you can blame China for the pollution, and claim that this never happens in a democracy with free media. In case there is no poor countries taking your garbage, you either lose the freedom of enjoying clean environment, or you will have to pay a higher cost to implement what you voted for. But that day may never come because poor countries are everywhere. Before that day, you can vote for clean environment let others pay the prices for you. It is just a version of modern day slavery. Telling slaves that they are free to eat then taking away 95% of their food is cruel.
      Jun 6
    • Microsoft cheinebs
      Korea had a single kingdom for 600 hundred years until Japan took over in 1900. After colonization was over, Korea had literally nothing. People’s mindset was still mixed being between worshiping a king and not knowing what to do as a second class citizen after Japanese. But it managed to make it. It had similar dictators like China. That ended by the people of South Korea around 1990s and it boosted the country a notch above. How is this possible? On the other hand, the country of north side is not doing well. They had similar population and even better economy in the beginning but what is it like right now? China had an incredible run but it needs to provide freedom to go a notch above. At current level, no countries respect China and wants to follow its lead.
      Jun 10
  • Microsoft stpD71
    Tc 150k 4 yoe.
    A) yes all my friends know about it before coming to us. It's not a secret.
    B) I don't know. My parents don't talk to me about this. But Chinese people loves to talk about politics and share opinions in close-door conversations, so I'd assume they know it.
    C) I was born in 90s, my generation don't care about democracy like last generation does. We know what will happen in tiananmen event happens again. Young people puts way more efforts on earning more money than caring about political system. A lot of Chinese people have mixed feeling about democracy. China doesn't have democracy system in history. Nobody knows what will happen if china takes democracy system. There are so many live examples in the world that one country takes democratic system and collapses. Democracy sounds promising because developed countries are running in this way. But it's hard to prove democracy will is the foundation of a developed country. Singapore is a developed country with democracy. Its political system works well. Back 1980s, Chinese government leaders were following Singapore model. When economy goes well, most people are happy. So you don't hear many Chinese people complaining about Chinese government. In 1989, the government was corrupted and doing pretty bad economically, people back then started the protest.

    Hope it makes sense.
    Jun 5 2
    • Microsoft widienw
      You sound incredibly partial, and a little brainwashed.
      Jun 5
    • Microsoft stpD71
      Changing political platform is like changing OS for production without testing. Why does US care about Chinese politics? For its own interest?
      Jun 6
  • Samsung goonda
    All authoritarian dictators start as beloved rulers at first. But then the true colors come out eventually
    Jun 5 0
  • Intel Act2016
    I know some Chinese that were there. And a lot of Chinese that weren’t that know about it. Things are quite good for the masses right now and there isn’t too much to rebel over
    Jun 5 0