Are "software engineers" really engineers?
Consider the following: 1) Anyone doing a 3 month's coding boot camp can get a job of a software engineer, even in FAANG (eg. the guy who founded Algoexpert). 2) It's not difficult to find people with a commerce background now established as SWE's or architects. 3) The pay gap between someone working as a freelancer and a FAANG engineer: does that translate to anything tangible like the lines of code in production or number of apps shipped? Blind tax: 385k #engineering #software #swe #faang #tech
I dont get it. These points are all fine but mostly apply to programming jobs and not necessarily rhe software engineering discipline. Why is the conclusion that SWE is unskilled then? 1- They will have sh*t knowledge of CS fundamentals or analytical skills. Bootcampers aren’t engineers they are programmers because it is simply impossible to attain a solid, permanent first principles based mindset in that short amount of time. 2- So? Supply and demand… you’re saying there is large supply therefore SWE is unskilled? Hmm could it be because there is a large amount of demand too? 3- Let’s assume there is no difference in quality. Why is it then that SWE is suddenly an unskilled discipline? Maybe those freelancers are also skilled? It looks like to you, there is a weird premise here that only FAANG can have skilled engineers… this couldnt be further from the truth
Several things wrong here: “1) Anyone doing a 3 month's coding boot camp can get a job of a software engineer, even in FAANG (eg. the guy who founded Algoexpert).” With the recent tech winter, many bootcamp graduates have been priced out of the market due to those with 4 year degrees and top universities flooding the market. Also FYI, Clement (the man behind AlgoExpert) graduated with a mathematics degree; he would have likely made it to coding and FAANG in any other instance. “2) It's not difficult to find people with a commerce background now established as SWE's or architects.” Career changers are a thing. Your logic is the equivalent of saying an electrical engineer can’t find work as a banker assuming the right credentials. Some careers are easier to break into than others, and if you have a STEM degree, the world is your oyster. “3) The pay gap between someone working as a freelancer and a FAANG engineer: does that translate to anything tangible like the lines of code in production or number of apps shipped?” This difference is the equivalent of comparing a D3 shot-in-the-dark prospect to an NFL-caliber rookie drafted in the first round. The rookie is likely to have certain attributes and tangibles outside of coding that make them more valuable as a draft pick and development piece. It has nothing to do with LOC or apps shipped (which aren’t even effective ways to measure engineering performance anyways).
1)You can't learn to be an engineer in 3 months unless you start as an engineer. Facts. 2) On the job experience while working with other engineers will teach you faster than some 70 year old prof in academia who's never held a SWE position. It's more telling to have 10yoe and not be architect/ senior dev level. 3) No. There are too many intangible variables at play to make tangible assertions.
I would call non-engineer coders “software developers.” That includes CS degrees. I’d take a mechanical engineer turned coder over a CS degree any day.
Are you a pm?
You have no idea what you are talking about. CS degree is probably the hardest degree - if done right - ie including mathematical groundings it needs and also operating systems and hardware depth. A programming course is a mocking or a full blows CS degree
They can but they won't survive, it's not just about getting the job
Do you have any evidence, statistical or anecdotal, for this? I know people from community colleges promoted to L6 and beyond in AMZN. Survival depends on hardwork and bootlicking, not on a CS Ph.D.
What evidence do you have that people with just bootcamp knowledge can excel in software engineering?
If I have a PhD in software engineering (after undergrad in CS), and someone on my same team comes from a bootcamp with a BA in communication, we are clearly different. But if we do the same job and have the same title, we are both software engineers. Frankly most of the stuff I do today, I learned it on the job.
Doesn’t that sadden you? Do you see those education years as wasted time?
I see them as experience. For some people it could have been the only way to get in the US. It's also beneficial to learn to live on $25k, instead of making $100k as at 21yo. Also, many people have other jobs before becoming SWE. Some work retail, or business analyst (basic Excel skills required). At least the PhD gives you a title that you'll have for life
I recently learned that as far as the Los Alamos National Laboratory is concerned CS people are not Engineers. They are not qualified to hold the title of "R&D Engineer" or "Engineer". They can have the title "Scientist" and still be promoted so long as they are publishing and all that, but they cannot be hired as an engineer. Part of the reasoning is the lack of a fundamentals of engineering state exam to provide certification, no mention of engineer in the formal degree title ( hard sciences pay attention to that kind of thing ), and a general management decision that programmers are not engineers.
Does it require a Professional Engineer exam and a license administered by your state? To really practice engineering is more akin to medicine and law. What we do is rarely that.
Software is just an abstraction of hardware
It’s just supply and demand. Anyone can be anything, all areas of expertise can be achieved. SWE is just the highest in demand because of the money. If electrical engineering was the highest paid and most in demand job all of a sudden, you’ll start seeing a lot of boot camps popping up for it, and all 3 of your points would apply
Not wrong, but it’s also not binary. The market is awash with a long tail of technical debt. That long tail is a fractal where the middle of the bell curve will settle.