Hi all, I am unable to find peace with being downgraded to a L5. Academically: I have a MBA and a MSC (Computer Science) and a PMP. YOE: I have about 12 years of experience as a manual / automation QA (NON-FANG), and I have 3.3 years of experience as a PM-T (Startup/NON-FANG). In April, I interviewed at Amazon as a Senior PM-T (L6) with the PARS groups, but it was felt that since I am coming in cold externally from a startup to Amazon, a L6 would be too much...and ultimately would not set me up for success. I was offered the role, but was downgraded to a L5, so I declined the offer. Now, with this Amazon L5 stamp on my head, every other Amazon role that I apply to has to be a L5 (Non-Senior). I find this really upsets me and makes me feel like a failure. Doesn't the MBA + MSC combination help at all? It's like all this education means nothing. Update: - Today I had another interview with the GES group for a L5 PM-T role, and I made it very clear to the hiring manager, that I want to work with him to be set up for success and assigned projects/processes so I can apply to promotion as a Sr. PM-T in 1.5 years. The feedback I got from the recruiter was that the manager felt I have unrealistic goals, as it will take on average 2-3 years to get a promotion. It's strange as when I spoke to the manager, he said he is big on employee growth and helping people get to where they want to go. Questions: - What is the difference between a L5 and a L6 PM-T? - Should I feel like a failure since I got downgraded to a L5 PM-T? - Was this manager out-of-line for quashing my ambition to be a senior in 1.5 years? - How long does it normally take to get promoted as a PM-T from a L5 to L6? - Should I apply at a larger (NON-FAANG) to get more PM-T experience, and then apply again in another 1.5 years to Amazon? The problem is I just don't have the "big scope experience" at my current company. We are a small 15 person startup (11 being the business folks) and costs are kept on a tight leash. We use open source software and our cloud provider is all on the free tiers. I could wait another 6 months and start the interview process again, but.. honestly, my scope at this job won't increase in 6 months. I'm not sure what to do. I think about this all the time and can't find peace and just enjoy my life. It's the Stanley Cup playoffs and I can't even enjoy hockey. All I think about is how much of loser I am being downgraded to a L5. Can someone offer some kind advice. I know there are a lot of trolls on Blind, but can I get a senior person from Amazon to reply and help me through this.
MBA, PMP, and Masters in CS doesn’t really mean anything. It can help in the beginning of your career to skip to PM2 or SWE2 but after that it is useless. I work with folks that have PhDs. It means nothing in the tech world. Real world experience at “FANG” like companies outweighs PhD in tech. (Most of the time) If you’re good you’ll get promo anyways dw.
Amazon hands out L6 PM like candy to graduating MBAs with 3yoe none of which in PM. Op is right to be outraged
If the hiring manager and recruiter are placing you at an L5 with 12 YOE and an MBA/MSC, then I think your experience or soft skills are not correctly aligned with your career path or your impact was low.
That’s news to me. Amazon hires new grad MBAs in L6 PM role lol
I’ve actually never had a competent manager that advertised having a PMP. That doesn’t mean you aren’t competent, I’ve just learned to avoid people with that cert the same way I avoid people who describe themselves as professional “scrum masters”. Are your degrees from prestigious schools?
MSC from Georgia Tech MBA from NON-prestigious school (due to the low cost)
Was it an online GT degree? Sometimes they’re not respected like in person or undergrad
The scope of the project is a major difference between L5 and L6. Given what you are coming from symall company it makes sense why you are not getting an opportunity and that will reflect in the interview. No you shouldn't feel like a failure, this is pretty normal if you are switching to a large company. The manager can't promise anything and if they do they would be lying. Seems like you found a decent manager who wants to set right expectations from getgo. If you just got promoted to L5, on average I have seen 3 years or so. 1.5 is possibly but likely unrealistic. It will take 6 months to ramp up. Then about 1 year to actually have a meaningful impact. L6 promotions are hard at Amazon. So you are looking at a minimum of 2+ years. You can for sure try other places but that's something you need to decide. I would ask if work is interesting to you or not. If you enjoy it go for it. Another option is to take the offer and switch in 2 years and get up leveled.
Wait 6 months and interview again at L6.
L6 scoped roles require you to have successfully managed L6 scope already. It sounds like you weren't able to demonstrate that scope in your interviews. Moving you to L5 is certainly a safer option. If you join and you're already operating at an L6 level, promotion within 1.5 years is certainly reasonable. But the other HM likely didn't want to overcommit and under deliver on your career expectations. If the L5 offer is more than what your current company offers, I suggest joining as an L5. There is a chance that you will realize the L5 role has larger scope than your current role. If it's not, you will already be operating at an L6 level, so you will quickly move towards L6. Don't treat the L5 offer as insulting- treat it as a safer bet. In the worst case, you can use the Amazon experience to move to another faang.
Keep interviewing with other company that will give you and L6 equivalent
No good company will give a candidate at this experience level the equivalent of Google L6. Perhaps Amazon L6 equivalent
You aren’t a failure. I have a similar background. Was downleveled. The job was well below my skill level, was promoted in 6 months. Next promo was scheduled for a year and a half later. Left Amazon for double TC and a more fitting senior level position before finishing even 2 years at Amazon. I was getting messages from recruiters for senior positions immediately after listing Amazon on linkedin. It’s a stepping stone.
L5 to L6 can happen in under a year if you’re actually at the next level