How are things at Miro? I'm finding lots of information about US based offices and it seems like they have a great culture, but it's almost too positive. What's the culture like in Amsterdam, are there growth opportunities, and is the pay always significantly lower than US offers? Recruiter that reached out offered way less than I expected for a senior product role. It would require relocating from the US and 3 days in the office.#travel TC: $250k 6 years of experience
Read pragmaticengineer.com’s blog post on the trimodal distribution of Amsterdam/EU tech salaries to understand how it works. Most companies pay much lower tech salaries in the EU, but QOL is often very good (whereas QOL at much higher comp in SF can be worse). Certain companies pay very competitive rates nearly in line with US comp (say 80 percentile comp) and I expect this trend to continue as remote work becomes more popular and the EU tech scene expands Ime moving out of the US can offer a much better lifestyle, if your values align with a European lifestyle. Smaller homes but safer, more beautiful streets. Better transit and access to cultural institutions (and better public funding for cultural institutions). More relaxed attitude towards work and less conversations revolving around where people work and office politics. You will still be very well-off compared to your peers, but the average or poor person will have fairly similar lifestyle to you. I love the egalitarianism but tbh some people depend on feeling elite for their egos
Thanks for sharing that website, it's really informative. It explains the differences really well. Now I wonder if the US and Canada have a similar distribution. Someone needs to write something like this for North America. Nah, I don't have an ego about stuff like that. I just don't want a paycut in case I'm only there for a few years or if I don't get the benefit of the 30% deduction. Maybe I'll see if they'll at least match what I'm making now. I know my salary is competitive but not at the top end in the US market, so I think that's a fair ask.
Plenty of companies here offering competitive comp. And Miro is ok but not at the top here. Plus with their crazy evaluation and recent closing of Russian offices ... not sure you it's the right place to join right now.
The culture in the Amsterdam office is great. People are friendly and there is a collaborative spirit. Also, at the moment going to the office is not mandatory. People go when they want and the vibe is positive. I go when I want some social interaction. About compensation, for sure it will be less than the US. It's a different market. Having said that, compensation is very good for Amsterdam standards.
That's great to hear, do you know if the company plans to bring everyone back to the office full-time when things are back to normal? The recruiter mentioned that hybrid is an option "for now". I know I'd definitely want to leave if everyone was forced back into the office full-time. Did you relocate for Miro? If you did, what type of support did they offer? Also, what additional perks does the company have? The website is pretty general.
I doubt we'll ever go back to full-time at the office. It's been almost 2 years of remote/hybrid work now. There are people who never come to the office. Some would quit if we went back fulltime. This is just my opinion though. I have no knowlegde of the long-term plans. I relocated, but it was a while ago. Back then they just asked me to send them the invoice for the moving company and they paid for it. I didn't need a work permit, so no paperwork. You should ask the recruiter. I'm sure it has changed. For benefits, there is a pension contribution, allowance to pay for healthcare, public transport card and some other benefits that i don't use. For me the main benefit is that the salary is decent, the product is cool and the people are nice. It is also very exciting that the userbase keeps growing.
The two most unprofessional recruiters I have seen are from Miro loops. Miro hires external recruiters from UK to do screening. Last year when I applied, one recruiter was extremely intrusive and tried pressuring me into revealing my pay, and was talking his own story of how Miro’s pay is much higher than my current pay. Second time a recruiter reached out to me and during the whole process he talked to me as if he was forced to. Didn’t show any positivity and ghosted me 3 weeks only showing up later telling me to proceed. Recruiters are the face of a company, I doubt what kind of candidates they can hire eventually with this kind of attitude. At the same time I got 3 other offers, 2 from well known tech, and I loved the whole process.
What were the other pffers
The culture is great! Tons of talented and fun people. The product is amazing and keeps growing. The salaries are indeed lower than US but on the top 10% of Europe and the Netherlands I’d say.
How is the WLB in the Amsterdam office? Is there an oncall rotation? How many hours are you expected to work?
Have been few months in. WLB is good. Most of my team works on average 8 hours per day. Rarely we have to pull overtime. Haven't seen anyone barring 1-2 rare occurrence in my team when people work on weekends.
From a salary perspective, US pays the most for tech roles or position in tech company. It’s quite a steep cut when you work outside of US, but the salary is still decent, above the average if you compare with other career positions in those countries. On top of that, Amsterdam income tax is higher than the US. You may be able to get some tax deduction the first few years working as an expat with certain requirements. I suggest to request that before you land in Amsterdam, if you decide to work there, otherwise you may lose that benefit once you land after certain amount of days.
The tax deduction (30% ruling) might not be there after June: https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/30-ruling-could-be-scrapped-under-dutch-governments-new-budget
Wow. Didn’t realize that may be gone soon.