Google bending to China, to offer censored search engine...Aug 1, 2018
Not saying any particular company's hands are clean, but if true, then clearly Google's recent move to scrub "Don't Be Evil" from all their corporate literature seems to make sense in light of this news...
- Facebook ThriftI don’t understand why everything in china has to be state Censored, how are citizens ok with this ?
- @thrift, My kids can raise questions, express their opinion and criticize me for something I did wrong, but no cussing, or disrespectful behavior. And also no RA material.
Apart from the darknet, there is another parallel universe outside of Google and the western world which is the chinese internet. Some say is already larger than the net...
There is abundant discourse there which includes critique of the government maybe more in the form of bitching as opposed to material that destabilizes the government. But certainly there is some intellectual discourse that could be considered not supportive of certain government policies.
So the analogy is if things go out of hand, than the heavy handed measures come in place.
- Microsoft LutherAlways stand on the moral high ground. Pretend to be polite to others but actually a racist deep inside. That’s why American always think they are superior and keep exporting their idea and value to the whole world. Glad Trump gets elected at least for one time they start to rethink there maybe something wrong about themselves.
- Timscock, the problem w yo ur analogy is that I think andy Lau genuinely likes xi, and therefore no need to f him...
It be like saying if RDN bitches about Obama...
I am sure some people in the general populace bitches about Xi, but that's no big deal... If there is a concerted faction that wants to topple Xi, maybe dark things happen... But then again dark things have happened in the white house if we believe Hollywood movies or conspiracy theories...
- Denying Chinese people of good products just because they don’t agree with a government, frankly, a shittier move, back in 2010.
- No it's not bowing. This is called compliance. Just like Google complies to EU fines, no matter how ridiculous Americans feel. As a company you don't have power over government. Chinese users deserve Google services regardless of the value and practices of their government. We want to meet that need by complying with government. Plain and simple.
- Yes Apple does and it's fucked up. Being complicit with a dictatorship will haunt American companies for all generations to come, and it's our responsibility as employees to make it clear to management that we do not agree with this, that these are not the values we work for. I will not go to China to be one of the thousands executed every year (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/04/death-penalty-facts-and-figures-2017/) but I have escaped myself from a dictatorship and I'm pretty clear on what people including myself think of complicit companies complying with government oppression.
- A dictatorship that kills and oppresses people, I know enough. The fact that they are so good at mindfucking their population that someone who has left that hell hole still defends that their own people should continue to be oppressed just goes to show you the dominance of the government over the mind of their population. North Korea is not so exceptional I guess.
- Who says we support censorships? What can Google do about it? The people in China want Google search, even censored version. If Google doesn't cooperate with the Chinese government, it doesn't exist as far as Chinese users are concerned. Providing useful information 99.99% of the times vs 0, how hard is it to choose? Or are you too stupid to realize that?
- So helping to create the cage in which people have no say about their government is better because with Google it'll be a nicer cage. I just don't know if you are a bad person, or if they have rotten so much of your brain inculcating you the system since you were born that now you can not see. 50 years from now, China will be a democracy, and your grand children will ask why you were not part of that fight. You are in the wrong side of history, and Google will be too if they become complicit.
- Tim'sCock, are you hallucinated? Please go ahead and fight the Chinese government for the freedom of the Chinese people!
Oh no, you are such a coward that you don't even dare to visit China. You are nothing more than a keyboard warrior who has no fucking idea about China and its people but want to be the judge. Lmao.Aug 2, 20182
- I agree that Chinese government should stop censorship etc but China is still a developing country. People in China earns 1/10th of Americans. Some developed countries like South Korea and Taiwan went through similar (albeit less) pains like this but they eventually build good democratic country. It takes time. China is like mid 80s in South Korea. Give additional 20 years at least. I think Chinese people also know that their country is very immature and they will be the first to admit they are far far behind US in so many ways. They are sacrificing some things for eventual good. People need to be educated more and generation has to be changed. China is more exposed because of its size but I think they are on a good track. After about 10-15 years, people will demand democracy and this is a natural course. Usually when economy grows by above 3% steadily, people as a group tend to forgive what government does.
- @Thrift, Size of economy at Finland is mush smaller than China but it is much much more developed country. Look at GDP per capital. That is a good indicator usually. I am surprised anyone will think China is a developed country because of its scale. India has like 10-15th biggest economy. Would you call it one of the most developed countries? If you are from India, you know the country is not much better than African countries. China is about 3x better but it is far far from developed country.
- New AFQu71In China essentially top 1% is mostly people with connections to government. Rest of population works for them like slaves. They live in dorm rooms that have like 10 beds per room above factories. Then those slave owners come to US to buy real estate and hide their money in case it would get confiscated in China one day..
- Fitbit / EngKyliejjiejmoreSucks but you have to follow the country policies and laws, why fight it?
NYT: Google withdrew from China 8 years ago to protest the country's censorship and online hacking. Now the company is building a new search engine that complies with Chinese censorship rules.
- They exit because they thought Google was powerful enough to influence the Chinese Government to make China more open and free. Ouch, it didn't happen. Chinese users are stuck with Baidu who does a lot of evil like selling ads linking to fake websites and promoting institutions doing unlawful medical practices. Why not go back and serve the Chinese users better than Baidu? Only because you don't agree with the values of their government? Do you know how many countries that Google operates in are ruled by non-democratic governments and Google does censorship for as well? Shall we deny people of all these countries of our service just because we don't like the way their government operates?Aug 1, 20187
- I actually admire the technical savviness of the Chinese government to be able to hack Google servers. Google engineers will definitely try harder next time. On the flip side, now that Chinese government requires that all Chinese user data stay in China and be readily available to them, there is no need to hack.Aug 2, 20184
- Google has long ago bended to saudi arabia by following that country's censorship rules. So wake up people no company will ever be entirely pure and innocent. And all the focus on China is just away the government wants the u.s. people to turn against that particular country. If you talk about human rights - why don't us pay attention to India, to Saudi Arabia, to the war America may be issuing against Iran?
- To AMD - Then why don't googlers gang up against google providing service in saudia Rabia? Supporting pentagon purely means providing weapon to kill, but providing a search engine in China, even censored, does not mean to make the censorship worse, as the internet has already been censored almost every where. If Chinese people want to use uncensored service, they can always use VPN (which many people are already doing). To provide google search engine there means tens of billions of people will access to much better, informative, fair, and transparent resources on many topics (e.g. hospital, medical care, education). The world is never black and white, I would rather think more practically - instead of thinking about moral philosophy only and being stuck in the same place years after years.
- I thought Googlers were fighting over submission to pentagon. How do they feel about submission to china?
- Oh shut up. We already censor results for Europe. This is such a non issue.
- Google JfofoansndWhy are microsoftfies throwing stones for google doing what bing has already been doing for years?
- Google / Eng🐉⚡moreGood good. Hopefully our drone bombers are ready soon too. 😈 "Be More Evil"
- To quote Noob-Noob: "God-daaaammmn!"
"So working with DOD via Project Maven caused an internal uproar, but helping China’s Party oppress over 1.3 billion people and violate their human rights is totally fine? Really, Google employees?"
- Google / EnglEEtcOdEso many stupid arrogant people who knows nothing about China comment here. China has its own laws, it does not matter whether you westerners like it. Google, as a company, in order to grow its business, tries to get in China by obeying the rules, what’s wrong with that ? Censorship is not always bad, especially considering it as a huge country like China. Stop forcing the so called universal value to other places. Its just dumb.
- Quite the opposite, Chinese will be more united once the Google/YouTube ban removed, as they saw the anti-China reality of foreign media. From this perspective I strongly pro the open-up. For example, Communist Party is always “protecting” Taiwanese by hiding their anti-China hatred, otherwise the Chinese gov will be forced by their citizen to take over Taiwan militarily. So westerners are really ignorant to live in the delusion to relate anything in China to their government but forget one thing —- extremely strong and distinctive nationalism based upon culture and history stretching thousands of years, which is the real force that glues China together. Chinese Communist Party need to play well this card but also cautious enough not to fire itself. From all comments above, we could see average westerners have zero knowledge about China yet China is expanding and taking over everything. You lose the competition from the beginning if you know nothing about your rival. That’s dangerous.Aug 5, 20182
- Intel GTag86Why blame China and Google? Our govt has backdoor into all gadgets and serives we use not to mention intercepting and reading searches and all other conceivable forms of communication. If a company had to operate here we force them to submit our surveillance methods.. Every country incl China want to do what we already do
- No you don't. Google is censored everywhere: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-country/RU
- Google UJBa23It’s a matter of principles, which have little to do with business needs. Many people have joined Google because they believe the company is more than simple business.
They believe(d) in the mission and vision. They praised the don’t be evil. They stand for the concept of Googleyness (even if this concept varies from Googler to Googler)
That translated into multiple initiatives that went beyond the “just business” such as the Data Liberation Front (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Data_Liberation_Front).
Standing against government crackdowns in China or helping relocate/evacuate our Eng team from Moscow are just the tip of the iceberg, the most public manifestations of that “more than business” mindset. Those were times were our teammates went through hell. There were many other similar examples
Providing only half information isn’t better than providing none. A half lie is lie. Lying by omission is a real thing. By providing only half of the picture you are reinforcing (endorsing) the echo chamber in which some governments want their population to live. In which case, why not asking directly Cambridge Analytica decide what we should show in our Search page? Who says we won’t be showing the same results as Baidu if we have to play by the same censored rules as them? In which case, are we there for $$ or the “better help billions of Chinese nationals”?
China is already using our products. Go to China and you would see all foreigners being able to use Google Search, Maps, etc. All locals are using VPNs to download our offline features (e.g. Google translate)
Besides, they already have apps for most of their needs. E.g. on how Wechat is way more advanced, versatile and holistic than any of our apps so it’s not like we would take them from middle-age into the 21st century
So if we go there with a censored app for the revenue, let’s be a grown up company, have some self respect and say it while at the same time scratching the remains of “don’t be evil” because we became that, just a conventional company. Which is fine I guess but most likely not the company I would like to work for.
- If you think Baidu is good enough for Chinese, you are underestimating the shit it has done. It's not just censored. It's way worse. Just look at this and you will be surprised: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi
If you think most Chinese people can use VPN, you are so wrong. I don't have exact number but definitely less than 1% knows how to Google using VPN (when I was in search we have a dashboard tracking this). And WeChat and other products are out of discussion because we are talking about search.
So you are talking about what principle exactly? No censorship? Google is doing that, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google . If you think Google will become the Chinese gov's propaganda machine, you can relax. And "providing half info" (also wrong, 90% is not cencored) is definitely better than none. Anyway, if you are morally okay with the current censorship/gov backdoor Google is doing now in the rest of the world, you will find yourself morally okay with that in China.Aug 2, 20183
- Hilarious to see all racists trying to bash China all the time in Blind while accusing Trump as a racist or whatever. How are you different from Trump?
- Amazon cayde-6Wait, they removed "don't be evil" from their docs? Why? Is being evil the new direction?
- Apple / Engfmzdhdintereating
Did Trump jail his critic? He orally attacks journalist, sure, did he jail them?
Did he murder any dissident?
Did he send lawyer fighting for political prisoner to labor camp?
Comparing a Communist regime with Trump shows that you have truly no idea how bad a government could be.
- Why the hell do people only see the dark side? Why don't you see the bright side of bringing the best search quality to billions of users? Even a cencored Google is 10x better (and more open I believe) than the shitty Chinese search engine Baidu! Why censorship is so fucking important that it always offset the merits of making a positive step toward making Chinese search better??
Bringing Google back to China != Evil
- China = Public Censorship, West = Public Manipulation. Same outcome.
- Providing 99% useful information to the people in the world's largest country vs non-existing to them. How hard is it to decide? It's beneficial to both Chinese users as well as Google's business. Why not do that? Oh maybe it hurts the moral superiority of some Google fans who don't live in China or even haven't been to China but want to judge what Google should do in China?
- I don’t understand why India has no big brands like Baidu, Tencent or Alibaba?
- You didnt get the point. Trump’s protectionism is bad and we all understand that, similarly chinese protectionism is bad too try to understand that too!
If every country starts protectionism that Chinese economy will be in shambles, where would you export your cheap Chinese products ?
- The reason they disagree is because some of then know about the bad Chinese policies and they want to level the field.
Entering a new market is difficult and if you add impossible laws it makes it more difficult. More companies want to enter chinese market but government policies are blocking them. Just imagube if the shitty regulations are lifted a lot more companies will come in which will bring more jobs and innovation and Chinese people wont have to migrate to US in search of better options.
- “Don’t be evil” is it surprising after Google itself embraced censorship?
- Is that your imagination or you have experienced that?
Even if you don't provide such service, these same users will go to other local services and get the same treatment. In a nutshell, we are not making the situation in China worse by operating there. The government has ownership of user data of its people, regardless of the service provider. When FBI wants user data from Google to track down suspects, we comply as well.
If we are not making things worse but at the same time benefiting 99.99% of the users there, why do you think it's evil?
- New YgKF6kGoogle refused to cooperate with the us military by refusing to let the us leverage its ai technology to hunt terrorists, which is a bigger concern than censoring content in China. Google already censors any content not consistent with the alt left, regardless of the country. And bluntly it’s their servers so they have the right to control what content goes on them; businesses have rights too.
- There is so much outcry from idiots about what they don't like about China as if Google can make a difference by not censoring itself in China. It's been 8 years and what's changed? Don't be so childish OK? It's not for you to judge whether Google should serve the Chinese users!
- This focuses mostly on Google's apparent planned launch of a censored search app. But there's also another issue here, which is the extent to which Google's unnamed China-based partner will provide user data to the Chinese government.
- So an illegal massive surveillance apparatus here that still requires due process is the same as a massive surveillance apparatus that exists to execute those who speak up and punish dissent?
You will be forced to give China data that will be used to imprison, torture and even execute political prisoners. But hey, everyone else it doing it
- The truth is, even China now opens for all US tech companies without any restriction, they won’t compete with Chinese local brands, except Google. China has already completed building its own Tech ecosystem. So obviously most keyboard warriors really like to comment and judge on what they know nothing about.
- Do you know what globalization means? If every other nation starts the same shit your chinese factories will shut down overnight and your shitty cheap products wont have any buyers and then imagine what will happen to once growing economy.
Try to understand why is chinese government so afraid of US tariffs. Protectionism is bad for innovation.
- Get some geopolitics lessons plz. Who told u globalization is perfect? Truth is globalization is broken now and regionization is the trend. Even for regionization? Just look at EU. Also Chinese economy now is mostly driven by domestic consumption as well as innovation. As mentioned above, this is because Chinese market itself is equivalent to the whole western world. It’s laughable your perception towards the world lags 10 years behind.
- Oh then why are you here ? If its a booming market why do people have to migrate to US ? Not a fan of tariffs but if they are implemented at the scale trump is imagining, your shitty economy will come down within days and your factories will close overnight.
Read more about economics before you start argumenting.
If Chinese economy is driven by domestic consumption then why is the government pissing in their pants about tariffs ?
- Here’s some data
Exports account for more than 18% of gdp
- @ricewater Paying a monthly fee for watching TV episodes? I doubt. Almost all the Chinese video sites offer videos for free, legally, at least for those name brand. Just like Alibaba offers zero-commission e-commerce in China and wiped out eBay and Amazon from China. The Chinese market is different and that's why many American companies failed there. Before banned by the government, Facebook was NOT doing well (compared with Renren at that time), and Google was NOT either (compared with Baidu then).
- It’s hilarious to see so many here still think China banning Google is simply to control public speech. It’s for growing domestic brands to make money ok?
- Google already does censorship in almost every country: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-country/RU
- If people want to understand the Chinese economy, read China's Great Wall of Debt by Dinny McMahon. He is a native Australian that spent 10 years covering the Chinese economy and financial system. He's fluent in Mandarin. This isn't a political book, but does discuss Chinese politics in the context of their economy. It is a very facinating read and points out the strengths and very real vulnerabilities too. While the US economy is healthy and China is slowing with some huge issues looming, it's time to correct their preditory and IP-stealing ways while we can. If that means a little pain along the way, so be it.
- IP-stealing? True. Ghost town? True. Overproduction? True. Slow down? No. They are transforming their economy to more tech- and service-oriented one. But anyway your perception on China reflects NY Times opinion, suggesting American media is your major knowledge source on China. Unfortunately they only would like you to know the China they wanted you to know.
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- New bBFR55People living under censorship don't know they are living under a censorship. Most government do that, only when system breaks for someone they realize it's all wrong. Watch the documentary 'They Live'