How can Apple run without PMs?

New / Product Justshipit
Nov 16, 2018 32 Comments

Heard that Apple does not have PMs. Also heard that requirements come directly from leadership and Design+Engineering execute.

How is this possible? How can you ship products without experiments, research and data?

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TOP 32 Comments
  • Oracle bema
    A world without Product Managers sounds amazing. I must apply.
    Nov 16, 2018 1
    • New / Product Justshipit
      OP
      I would love to understand why? Thank you so much!
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Microsoft / Eng
    simulation

    Microsoft Eng

    BIO
    Bio
    simulationmore
    The bigger question is, why other companies have PM ?
    I am still trying to to comprehend why that role exist along with engineering manager !
    Either one needs to get eliminated
    Nov 16, 2018 4
    • Oracle / Eng 8-/
      Hear, hear.
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Oracle fatalflaw
      "Why do companies have engineers, they never make stuff we want to sell," is what Sales and Marketing would say! Try a rotation stint at that role or speak to a good PM to understand why they are needed.
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng
      simulation

      Microsoft Eng

      BIO
      Bio
      simulationmore
      Read it again, I've not said that PM are useless. I am saying that either PM or engineering manager needs to get eliminated ..
      That's the problem with you PM ..u just don't want to listen o engineers, 😁
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Oracle fatalflaw
      Lol, I'm not a PM - just saying that every such function is needed, regardless of who does it.
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Amazon Trolling
    Probably why they have shown no innovation as of late. Simply been copying Samsung.
    Nov 16, 2018 2
    • Lyft / Eng QjNg28
      Name checks out
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng
      sarcasticg

      Amazon Eng

      PRE
      Sabre Corporation
      sarcasticgmore
      I can vouch, @trolling is fluent in sarcasm
      Nov 16, 2018
  • PeerStreet / Other
    Q7ah2eW7

    PeerStreet Other

    PRE
    Amazon
    Q7ah2eW7more
    PM is a rent seeking role that adds no value and needs to be eliminated
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Pinterest expin
    Many non-Valley companies don't have PMs. They have engineers who write code and tests, program or project managers that do schedules and process and marketing teams that do mkt research and outbound marketing.
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Apple Seducer
    We do have pm but only the nice ones. We focus more on the real work. Good news, Apple doesn’t have the nonsense 1.5hr sprint planning/closing meetings.
    Nov 16, 2018 2
    • Apple / Eng Schneider
      Not in every org unfortunately
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Apple Wapple
      We do ):
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Apple Wapple
    I was surprised to find out this is somewhat true. Engineers run the design ship (for better or mostly worse) until the end when PD/HI steps in to “Appleify” your project.
    Nov 16, 2018 1
  • Because Steve Jobs famously said something like the customers don't know what they want til you give it to them.
    Nov 16, 2018 1
    • Oracle fatalflaw
      And without Steve Jobs or Ford, such a strategy would make your business fail. There are terrible PMs out there, but that function is required, whether done by engineers or the CEO!
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Apple Snut Ella
    I’m sorry but what makes you think there are no PMs @ Apple? A PM by any other name is still a PM.
    Nov 16, 2018 1
    • New / Product Justshipit
      OP
      Your career page, LinkedIn and a few friends who work there.
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Expedia No—name
    I personally feel Project manager or technical project manager roles are unnecessary in any company. I think at least product folks will do something like running tests and coming up with data..
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Facebook / Eng
    fb2017

    Facebook Eng

    PRE
    Google, Oracle
    BIO
    worked at Oracle, then Google, now Facebook.
    fb2017more
    PM is useless
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Apple / Eng Schneider
    You heard wrong - we have too many of them
    Nov 16, 2018 2
    • New / Product Justshipit
      OP
      Oh really? Which products?
      Nov 16, 2018
    • Apple / Eng Schneider
      SW
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Apple Derric
    Because we work backwards from the customer experience which a PM cannot add value..we are a company that creates products that are extension of human senses
    Nov 16, 2018 1
    • New / Product Justshipit
      OP
      I agree. That’s why iTunes and the App Store Review process are so great 🥰
      Nov 16, 2018
  • Amazon Trolling
    Because engineers are often too married to their ideas and wishes without actually understanding business or user impact. We have 15 tools that do the same shit which one free open source tool does Better than all 15. Why? Coz engineers wanted to build something fun they saw somewhere else.
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Apple Sharingan
    They make meetings, take notes, make radars etc to free up time for engineers. A big nice to have for sure.
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Oracle fatalflaw
    A rose by any other name...
    Nov 16, 2018 0
  • Amazon Trolling
    While I certainly agree customers don’t always know what they want, it doesn’t discount the need to make them an integral part of your design, you want to know their needs not their design recommendations.
    Nov 16, 2018 0

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