Neutral discussion on S386/HR1044

Apple WOZ19
Sep 30 66 Comments

This is a thread not to support or oppose the bills, but to invite points to be made in good faith from both sides.

Those who will personally benefit or lose from the bills are requested to disclose their personal impact and make logical arguments on either side.

OPs disclosure: I am an Indian citizen but I will be unaffected by the bill due to cross-chargeability rules allowing me to apply under a different country limit, and because I already have my I-140.

My own views:

Points in favor of the bill:
- Treating people differently based on their country of origin is discriminatory, and a person cannot be held accountable for actions of other individuals from their nation. That is fundamentally un-american. The bill would eliminate that.

Points against the bill:
- Humans have a tendency towards in-group bias, i.e. treat people from their own background better, in terms of interviews and referrals. Some form of a country cap would mitigate this bias by ensuring that lesser represented backgrounds have a more favorable process.

Suggested compromise: Have a country specific cap weighted by population during the H1B visa allocation. This will ensure that all immigrants have the same wait time for a green card, and will still ensure diversity.

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TOP 66 Comments
  • Google eljuyg
    Those indian consulting companies, indians, abused the system and created this massive backlog from which all indians including high skilled ones suffer. Is this statement not correct?
    Sep 30 11
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      Even if there exist these hypothetical abusers in the queue, your suggestion is not to identify them but to penalize an entire group of applicants, while vaguely claiming that it correlates with the abusers.

      I don’t think your argument will persuade a majority of senators to vote against a bill that ends discrimination against innocent people.
      Oct 1
    • Google eljuyg
      I don't suggest penalizing. S386 clearly benefits abusers in its current form while penalizing innocent non indian nationals. Suggest something that only benefits innocent high skilled indians suffering from backlog and people will be more supportive I guess? And you and I both know it is factual not hypothetical that those exist in absurdly large quantity.
      Oct 1
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      The onus is on you to provide proof. I do not know how much abuse exists in the system, all I know is that assuming it corresponds directly to place of origin is discrimination.
      Oct 1
    • Google eljuyg
      You can easily know if you google - I'll leave you to that. S386 is much worse discrimination and it's anyways dead bill this year so doesn't worth mulling over anyways.
      Oct 1
    • Facebook / Eng pookyh
      No. The onus is on you to provide reasons other than the emotional please and sob stories for why a senator would want to publicly vote for this bill. Otherwise it’s stuck where it is.
      Oct 1
  • Amazon Frye;
    Isn’t the huge backlog of Indians making EB GC granted to only Indians in an entire decade the biggest blocker here?
    Sep 30 6
    • Google eljuyg
      3 years phase in row gets like 15%, then next 7 ish years all goes to indians.
      Sep 30
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      That phase should increase to something like 5-7 years to slowly settle things.
      Oct 1
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      Hmm. Interesting. The phase in period where both systems are used should last until the backlogs do. What do you think?
      Oct 1
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      Yes I get the number but the extra buffer makes it less aggressive.
      Oct 1
    • Facebook / Eng pookyh
      The phase in period is a token. It doesn’t solve the issues from other groups.
      Oct 1
  • Microsoft
    ~=3

    Microsoft

    PRE
    Expedia Group
    ~=3more
    People from ROW or India bring the same exact set of skills, there is no reason one group should be treated favorably over the other. First come first serve is fair, if you don’t agree, you are clearly biased. If you have a problem Indians abusing visa, take that up with the adjudicators, they are ultimately responsible
    Oct 1 4
    • Microsoft pig pig
      The current system doesn’t treat any group favorably over the other. Many unqualified ICC h1b abusers make Indians wait longer. U tricked the visa system to get in this country, why do you expect to trick the immigration system again to get GC? According to your point, no group shall be treated favorably over the other. I’d say, Indian group shall be not be treated favorably over ROW
      Oct 1
    • Microsoft
      ~=3

      Microsoft

      PRE
      Expedia Group
      ~=3more
      What trick? The adjudicators reviewed and approved the petitions. I don’t see anything illegal happening. If you think the law should be changed, by all means lobby for a merit based system like Canada. Don’t expect a country cap to be in place again if and when that happens.
      Oct 1
    • Microsoft
      ~=3

      Microsoft

      PRE
      Expedia Group
      ~=3more
      By the way, you grouping all Indians together is kind of stereotypical, don’t you think? You must also believe all Muslims are terrorists and probably also support the blanket immigration ban on certain countries.
      Oct 1
    • We should just make it first come first serve and invalidate every one in the backlog and ask them resubmit their application. We did them wrong, now it’s time to do it over and do them right.
      Oct 1
  • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
    Remove all the caps.

    Amnesty for the undocumented.

    Open the borders: you pass a basic background check -> you’re in.

    You live, work, and pay taxes here for 5 years or so -> here’s your green card.
    Sep 30 5
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      I think that is the inevitable future (since it is the optimum policy for economic production), but I doubt such a bill can pass for the next few years, at the very least.
      Sep 30
    • New nocows
      US would become Middle East.
      Oct 1
    • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
      Not sure what you mean by that.
      Oct 1
    • Daimler / Data ∝CMV
      @sJJ war zone with civil war and dissatisfaction everywhere
      Oct 2
    • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
      Yeah, bullshit.
      Oct 2
  • Booking.com
    Баба Яга

    Booking.com

    BIO
    🤬🤪🥴🥺🤫😜🤦‍♂️
    Баба Ягаmore
    A root cause of this whole h1b and gc queue flooding is that too many people from india want to move to the US. how come so many indians want to leave their country? and why US specifically? US is a stressful country to work in. staying in a US company requires, not only tech skills, but plus political and survival skills. Also, isn't it happier to stay at the home country to be with friends and family?
    Oct 1 3
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      Each person chooses their own nation, I can hardly answer for all Indians. For me, personally, the US is my home now. I met my wife here, and I have new friends here. I have never found life stressful here.

      I guess many other Indians feel the same way, and intend to stay, however long it takes them to get a green card.
      Oct 1
    • Booking.com
      Баба Яга

      Booking.com

      BIO
      🤬🤪🥴🥺🤫😜🤦‍♂️
      Баба Ягаmore
      But you didn't answer the question. You realised you want US to be your home after you moved to the US. I'm not asking for why people want to stay.

      What I'm asking for is why and what makes Indian folks want to leave their country in the first place and why move to the US specifically?
      Oct 1
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      The silicon valley is the center of technological revolution that is impacting the world, for good or bad, in an unprecedented way. This is about more than countries, it is about the future of humanity.

      And me? I am one of its architects. Where else do you expect me to be?
      Oct 1
  • Amazon real_bezos
    Isn’t it blocked? Why are we still talking about it? I thought it was dead.
    Sep 30 5
    • Amazon / Eng bGuRi
      Nope
      Sep 30
    • Amazon real_bezos
      Huh? Can you explain?
      Sep 30
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      The bill is not dead. It is yet to be voted on.
      Sep 30
    • Amazon real_bezos
      Oh didn’t know that.
      Sep 30
    • It will never come to vote. Lee won’t humiliate himself by letting a public hearing happen.
      Sep 30
  • Groupon / Eng sleepy
    Another thing you forgot to mention. The India born kids who come here and age out. No matter what we do to this, we must address those kids. I know people who are good otherwise are back to the h1b queue after their parents are on the same.
    Oct 1 4
    • Booking.com
      Баба Яга

      Booking.com

      BIO
      🤬🤪🥴🥺🤫😜🤦‍♂️
      Баба Ягаmore
      What are you trying to say? What about those kids? Why people must address those kids?
      Oct 1
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      Because we are providing EADs to kids in similar conditions with undocumented parents.

      My additional point would be those kids are US educated and would add value to the US economy.
      Oct 1
    • Booking.com
      Баба Яга

      Booking.com

      BIO
      🤬🤪🥴🥺🤫😜🤦‍♂️
      Баба Ягаmore
      Kids should be with their parents. What is wrong with that?

      And, what are you saying? First it's about h1b visa queue, and now it's undocumented parents? 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️
      Oct 1
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      Sorry if you misunderstood. The provision for undocumented parents is already there. We need a parity for documented ones.
      Oct 1
  • Applied Material eKSY04
    If the cap is weighted by population, it won’t have diversity.
    Sep 30 4
    • Seagate PKbl54
      What is a perfectly diverse group of 1Mn people?
      Sep 30
    • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
      One where everyone who wants gets in and has a path to citizenship.
      Sep 30
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      What is “diversity” according to you? Nations like India have plenty of linguisitic and ethnic groups within. If you have equal number of samples from them as from a smaller nation, you lose out on the diversity that would bring.
      Sep 30
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      ^ Also there are countries like Malta, Luxembourg or Liechtenstein those have little different from their neighbors. Diversity is the most invalid argument in this discussion.
      Oct 1
  • Amazon I, Oktopus
    Fixed number of green cards can not satisfy greater demand. Some people have to be “discriminated” as you call it. US can only choose who and how but they can not choose not to discriminate. And since India produces most applications, no matter what “fair” criteria is chosen most rejects will always be Indian.

    You just have to deal with that. There is no point discussing further with a person who is still dreaming of possibility for every applicant eventually receiving their green card.
    Oct 1 3
    • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
      There is no fundamental reason why there has to be a limited, much less fixed, number of green cards.
      Oct 1
    • Amazon TRuc81
      There is no fundamental reason why the United States should limit the number of people moving to the country permanently - is that what you’re saying yelp?
      Oct 1
    • Yelp / Eng sJJv80
      I wouldn’t mind that, but that’s not implied by removing all GC limits in and of itself. You also would need to have open borders.
      Oct 1
  • Flagged by the community.

    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      It seems you were spawned at a time when humanity is a few evolutionary generations ahead of you. Hey, at least you can empathize with the average ape from six million years ago, heh.
      Sep 30
    • Microsoft pig pig
      Don’t have much else to say to whom started the whole thing as the bill is against discrimination. lol, no one discriminates you Indians. Just stop playing victims from now, ok? Work with the administration to solve the ICC problem and truly embrace the merit based immigration reform. Otherwise, just shut up and wait
      Sep 30
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      I have no more or less responsibility to solve the problem than you or anybody else here. If you read my post you will see that I am unaffected by the bill and I am on track to get a green card soon. My only interest is to ensure a fair system for all.
      Sep 30
  • LinkedIn Wiener
    Bill is dead, let’s move on.
    Sep 30 2
    • Apple WOZ19
      OP
      The bill is alive and is yet to be voted on.
      Sep 30
    • LinkedIn Wiener
      It either passes unanimously (which is pretty much impossible now), or it’s dead, because the senate will never prioritize this bill for voting.
      Sep 30
  • LinkedIn Humphrey G
    Here’s the deal with ‘merit based’ points system:

    Indians will dominate that system even after weeding out ICC
    - US educated
    - Job in US.
    - High salary
    - English speaking.
    - Majority below 35 years of age
    That’s majority of the points in a points system.

    Unless there’s a country cap, no nurses, no Europeans like Neil Munro on EB visas, no low wagers from other countries. That’s why it’ll never happen.
    Oct 2 2
    • Amazon I, Oktopus
      Nurses can be protected by evaluating TC and education relative to mean/variance of their profession rather than by absolute. Or by manual industry caps.

      Indians dominating merit system is not a problem. The problem is with lazy dumb H1B frauds that are currently capturing over 50% GC applications by body-spamming the system.

      Giving them free pass will be unfair to every meritable person in the world regardless of nationality, and will encourage 10x more spam. That is the ultimate problem with this law.
      Oct 2
    • LinkedIn Humphrey G
      Those ‘lazy dumb H1B frauds’ will still make it as ‘merit’, albeit lesser points, but more than nurses unless you give extra points to ‘shortage jobs’, which is essentially a cap of a different kind.

      Another way is to cap top ‘x’ of every employment type. But this lets in those earning less than ‘lazy dumb H1B frauds’. Again, another kind of cap.

      Every system has flaws. The best lobby/power interest wins. RoW/illegal-solution-first has won.
      The end.
      Oct 2
  • Intel pOHu75
    This particular 'against' point you listed seems missing in all the tabloid and social media discussions.
    Oct 1 0
  • New / Eng
    avg_joe

    New Eng

    PRE
    Apple
    avg_joemore
    It’s DOA. They’ll never learn and posting it is only alienating everyone
    Sep 30 0

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