European devs: Do people get laid off/fired over there?
What's the occurrence/frequency vis a vis USA? Comparisons across branches of same parent company? Personal experiences? Please mention country. TC 170k USD yoe 5
No
It can’t possibly be “never”. I’m trying to understand the devil in the details. Which country? Where is the boundary?
Yes they can lay off people and do. They have to go through all onerous process. Differs by country but for example they may have to have a public meeting where they present the proposal to lay people off and receive counter proposals and such, and then they will have to pay loads of severance. Firing somebody for performance problems is also tougher and requires a bullet proof paper trail documenting the performance issue along with the actions taken to try to train the employee on the correct behaviors.
Thank you for the specifics. Laying off total dead weights is OK, otherwise you cannot have a functioning organization. I’m only looking at things in relative terms. The power boundary is closer towards employers in US, and further away from workers if immigrant. Wanted to confirm my suspicion that it is indeed closer to employees in the EU. Appreciate your reply!
Just don't work in Europe.. there's just some things in life not worth finding out
What’s your first hand experience?
Just interviewing was bizzare and having worked internationally side by side with Europeans at their offices it's not nearly as comfortable (no come and go as you please, no real working independently, etc) as working in American offices
I work in UK. Started with UK based company which was taken over by US based. Layoffs do happen as per company’s situation & these days political scenes too. AFAIU, US owned companies are a bit brutal in layoff procedure even here, e.g.: one fine morning you come to office to know you are being laid off & leave before lunch with your stuff w/o anybody knowing. Traditional UK based companies seem a bit conservative here and do the same thing gradually (by giving garden leaves etc). However, both cases seem to get good severence package. Not sure if thats good or bad though. Folks on work visa have approx. 4-6 weeks to find new job & sponsorship before heading back to home country.
Switzerland: employment is completely at will, easy to hire & fire people. Still, many companies (banks especially) like to hire devs through body shop agencies
I worked in the Netherlands, where there is no such thing as at will employment. Your employer needs to go to court to prove that you are not doing your job before they can terminate your permanent employment contract. Of course, they can make your life miserable so that you sign a mutual agreement and leave. And salaries are lower / taxes are higher.
Can you share you Dutch TC? I’m curious to know how comp compares to the Bay Area
80k + significant bonus, below senior level. It's a really good salary for the Netherlands, only two companies that pay that well in Amsterdam are Booking.com and Uber