Many PIP’s over the years have been easy — low performers, slackers, rule breakers. But this one was different. I almost felt bad for the guy. The biggest issue at Amazon isn’t that we PIP good employees (we don’t) the problem is this is a place for self-starters, which isn’t for everyone. This poor L4 had ZERO idea he wasn’t doing a good job. Nobody was communicating it to him, and while it’s easy for me and other L6s to see, it wasn’t apparent to him. It got me thinking that people need to realize Amazon culture is about taking Ownership. If you’re going to get paid like the top 1%, you’re going to have to perform like it. I know alot of people are early on in their careers, but asking questions and keeping your finger on the pulse goes a LONG way. As the L4 went into Focus, he was not specifically told. Many clues were given, but I could tell he couldn’t pick up on them. The reality is this employee was performing very poorly by every metric. And he was definitely given so many opportunities to improve, and was given specific feedback. But he was never explicitly told “you’re going to get fired if you don’t change.” Should we be explicit to employees regarding that? I’m not sure. Part of taking ownership is being able to look at yourself and make adjustments where you see fit. Part of being paid a lot of money is to be a professional. But at the same time, are we being too hard on someone who is early on in their career, from a foreign country, and struggling with English and communication? I can tell you at other companies with less TC, there is a lot more grace and less pressure. Maybe Amazon isn’t for everyone. Edit: I want to clarify I am NOT a manager. I did not make any decisions regarding this PIP. TC: $400K
L4 is entry level correct? Don’t you think you or any of the others that as you say could easily see the work he was putting in wasn’t good should have done the bare minimum to give some advice or something? This seems more of a reflection on you and the people in Amazon than anything.
We did give him advice, several times. My point is he was never explicitly told “if you don’t take this advice, you will be fired.” I was specifically instructed by management to not share he was in Focus or in the path to PIP.
Hate such managers 😠
PIPing reflects poorly on management too. Means they aren’t doing the best with the Human Resources they have
That’s partially true. But not every employee is a good one right?
The test is how you handle low performers for whatever reason they are in that spot to help them improve and it seems your management is failing that test. Perhaps their motivation isn’t in fact to help the person get better..
Communication was definitely lacking. Why didn’t you guys tell him? Seems like a team issue
That’s what I’m saying. We told him he needed to do better in several areas. We even discussed him switching teams. He didn’t take any of the advice. I believe he assumed nothing would happen. The only thing we did not communicate was his lack of action would lead to PIP.
Honestly im no Amazon fan but he's at least partly culpable. You have to realize you're jumping into the fire by going there and you should at least have the awareness to always be in a low state of alarm for PIP clues.
Yeah, well you should feel bad. You talked a big deal of Ownership but you and your team couldn’t take accountability to tell an entry level employee that his work is not up to par. Your company’s management and attitude towards these matters is on par with the steaming pile of hot shit im taking right now.
We did tell him he’s not up to par. He admitted to me his manager told him he needs to “raise the bar on several things.” My point is he did not make the connection between “I’m below the bar” and “I’m going to get fired.” The question is: who does that fall on? I can promise you at many companies they will simply fire you with zero warning.
Telling someone they need to raise the bar does not automatically mean their bar is underperforming. They could be doing great but management always wants 110%.
Faulty leadership. Make sure people have what they need to succeed. That may simply be a conversation.
How far does this go? I’m asking a genuinely question. If someone is told they need to raise their performance, how long should someone get?
This is a leadership issue. If your manager isn’t setting you for success, then it’s all on the manager. No clear communication is also a manager issue. If I know I’m going to pip this dude in 3 months if he dosnt change xyz I prob should tell him I want to see xyz or there may be Consequences
A lot of people in tech have autism and/or just don't get hints
I’m starting to realize this. Especially the “not taking hints part.” I’m literally in 1:1s every week working on my L7 promo, looking for clues to my actual performance, reading facial queues. This guy has a blank look on his face when you tell him to do a simple task.
That sounds incredibly ableist. My autistic teammate is awesome IF he knows what's going on. Our manager has to point him in the right direction then he runs for goals. He might never be a self starter, but the dude is a killer dev
How was this guy so unaware of Amazon’s reputation? Also I think your description of the situation is confusing. He had “ZERO idea” he wasn’t doing a good job yet knew he had to raise the bar in several areas? It seems like he knew he wasn’t doing well. If he got decent time and opportunity to get better, then this pip seems justifiable although a bit harsh.
That’s the puzzling thing. He just told me matter of factly that he wasn’t raising the bar per his manager. He seemed to have zero comprehension that he wasn’t performing well. Like the feedback was just for fun. I’m trying to reconcile the disconnect myself. Why else would he have zero sense of urgency?
maybe he hates programming and doesnt care if he gets fired.
You seem to be trying hard to help this person. Sometimes people don’t take things seriously unless worst things happen. He might realize after getting fired and starts performing in his next job or this person might be having some other interest and might be just relaxing in Amazon. Assign him a mentor and ask him to give more clues and see if that helps. Sometime people won’t open up with managers but they might share it with others
I’m not sure if he’ll be able to survive PIP or if he has something else lined up. I’m hoping myself or someone else will be able to assist with his tasks. I could tell by some of the communication with him that the handwriting is on the wall and management doesn’t want him to succeed. That part I don’t like, but at the same time, it’s frustrating to pay somebody a lot of money to do nothing.
In my mind, they should be paired with a buddy(someone like you in this case who can help them make the connection) for a month- and given 3 months in total after the ambiguous warning that they need to raise the bar
I think that’s a great idea. Everybody always focused on the PIP part, but I think we need to hone in on what comes before (Focus). Amazon leadership has made it clear that there has to be written documentation of poor performance, as well as this being communicated to the employee. But the issue is they’re not EXPLICITLY told “you’re on Focus.” Why can’t we just tell the damn employee, partner then with a mentor, and if they still don’t succeed, move to PIP?
The messaging doesn’t matter, may be explicit messaging has some legal loophole who knows However I believe partnering with a mentor will truly help. Pitch this to the leadership - who knows it might change someone’s life ✌️
Good analysis. Here’s another option: people wouldn’t join Amazon if they weren’t paid enough to justify/offset the toxic culture.
Yeah that’s true. The high salary masks a lot of things to be honest.
OP you are the toxic culture