Why are there no L1/L2 levels?
Seem most SDE positions have a notion that engineers start at “L3”. Why is that? Correct me if I’m wrong but normal progression is: L1 = ? L2 = ? L3 = SDE1 = MTS/ICT2 = New grad L4 = SDE2 = MTS/ICT3 = Some experience L5 = Sr. SDE/MTS/ICT4 = Senior/Lead L6 = Staff SDE/MTS/ICT5 = Lead L7 = Principal SDE/MTS/ICT6 = Architect Edit: Also break down of distribution, does this seem reasonable? L3 = 15% L4 = 35% L5 = 35% L6 = 10% L7 = 5%
Google has their engineering residency program thing. I’m assuming those devs are lower on the ladder?
Frequently, they’re “employee levels” and not “engineer levels.” We have IC1 and IC2 levels, but you’re expected to progress past them in a reasonable amount of time. IC3 is where the majority of people should be at any given time because IC1 and IC2 are basically junior and intermediate level positions. IC4 and beyond are somewhat self-limiting because you’re affecting the direction of the entire engineering org at those levels. I think that more or less means our scale roughly is the same, but it starts at 1 instead of 3.
I added IC to the comparison also. Would you say IC3 is senior or IC4?
In our system, IC3 is your basic senior engineer. IC4 and above, you’re probably a group tech lead just because of the scope of projects you’re supposed to be able to lead. IC1 is pretty much “just fell off the turnip truck” level, i.e. new grad.
It's because Google used to have a standardized payscale across the org and engineers would start at "T3" (T for technical) because that's how much entry level engineers got paid. Other roles might have ladder that start with 1 or 2. I think datacenter employees would have started at "T1". Everyone else just copied Google, most notably Facebook. Now there is no uniform payscale, a L5 recruiter makes way less than a L5 TPM who makes way less than a L5 engineer.
Initially, the idea was that all employees at Ln will get paid the same. So the starting level determined the minimum salary. As such, Google starts SWEs at L3 and roles like data center technicians, security etc at L1/2. Amazon starts SWEs at L4.
Probably comes from the government “GS” pay grades. Where every role exists on the same scheme, just different starting points.
Some companies start the leveling at L1 for new grad SWEs. Zillow has a “P1” which is for people in that role without a relevant degree (eg boot camp grads). “P2” is for CS grads. I actually think this works better because it gives boot camp grads a fighting chance due to lower expectations.
I’m not so sure that’s a great idea. The average CS grad is not a very good engineer to begin with. Lowering the bar even further could be counterproductive. But, then, I could be totally wrong. How well do boot camp grads starting at P1 typically do?
We drain the blood of all the L1/L2 people and convert it into an elixir of TC
You provided your own answer. If SDE1 = L3, there’s no SDE0 so that’s “the first rung for a software engineer”. There are bands below engineering titles with no software engineers. There are bands above engineering titles with no software engineers. Also, I’ve only ever known MTS I - IV. Then you get into SMTS/PMTS/DMTS. From what I understand, at AT&T, a DMTS is basically an extremely high band (for a telco - topping out at $280k base) for poaching external talent into Bell Labs. Though my peers at Verizon seem to have seen internal postings for DMTS and Distinguished Engineer. Pay band there is no different than for a SMTS/PMTS. Sadly tops out near $150k.
Data scientist ladder starts at L2